Sam Jockel On Raising Children And Regulating Their Relationship With Technology
Sam Jockel started out as a social worker working for many years in schools. In 2010 after having her first child Sam launched the Facebook page ALDI Mum, which grew from nothing to over 170,000 followers.
In 2012 she co-founded Social Media Agency Good Funny Smart and established another online community called School Mum which has grown to over 460, 000 followers. In 2017 she ventured into the tech startup world and launched ParentTV a video streaming platform personalizing parenting advice from the world’s leading research-based parenting experts direct to parents via any digital device.
Having been married to an elementary school teacher Sam also became aware that parents are showing up to schools and childcare centers asking for parenting help when those institutions exist to educate children and are not equipped with all of the help parents are asking for. Supporting parents online and ensuring access to great information to make the world a better place is what Sam is all about!
Sam discusses creating educational data-driven content so parents can learn to connect with their children and key systemic barriers faced by young people growing up as a digital generation.
Highlights from the interview (listen to the podcast for full details)
[Sarah Ripper] - To start off, could you please share a bit about your background and what led you to where you are now?
[Sam Jockel] - After school I studied a double degree in human services (which is like a mix of social work and community development) and theology, which is random in and of itself. I worked in the youth work and community development space for a short period of time before getting married and having my first child at 24. Then I was at home; I have a very active brain and I say to people I just went from doing community development offline to online. That was when FaceBook was starting, I ended up at home building communities online in the early days. This community grew to about 650,000 parents, and I did that for seven years. That's a long story, but I won't get into that because it would take a long time to share.
After about seven years, I realised there were some issues with the fact I was working as an influencer/blogger. I started out trying to help people, and ended up selling them Milo and two-minute noodles which wasn't really the plan for my life! I just stopped doing it one day, which was a big deal at the time all things considered.
My soul was slowly being destroyed one promoted post at a time. That's when I sat with myself and questioned what do I know and what do I do next? That was where ParentTV was birthed, about six years ago. It came out of knowing parents were going online asking for help. I was a witness to that for a long time, but also knew it was a choose your own adventure where you never knew what you were going to get. There were echo chambers everywhere; people asking questions and getting answers from people who maybe didn't even know them or their situation. What I knew was, since we had the internet as the place and space we went to get our information, things got worse not better in terms of our mental health. I had a vision of creating a brand (which is now ParentTV) that became known for being a trusted and credible voice in the world of parenting. We have no sponsorship, no advertising, no product placements; we are a subscription service and what we guarantee people is research-based experts and video streaming which go for five minutes. We are short, sharp, and to the point. We work with psychologists, psychiatrists, paediatricians, occupational therapists, you name it. Our customers are schools, childcare centres/ organisations, libraries, and people that support parents. We've become a tool for them to use in supporting parents within their network, because parents sometimes go to those places, but they're not actually geared for that social, emotional, or mental health support. They're often there to educate our kids, so we attempt to stand in the gap as a trusted partner of education and information.
What are the key systemic barriers you've identified, are passionate about changing and what else is possible in this space?
My husband's a primary school teacher, so I get insights from him into the state school education system. Also, he's working in a low socioeconomic area. There's a lot going on. The thing I'm seeing more and more with the work I've been doing and the world we live in, with all the demands we have on us with how things are structured, I feel nobody is protecting the kids. We're all just pointing at each other saying “that's your responsibility”. No one is stepping in and up in a way that kids need for them to be okay. I do understand part of the issue (because I come from a double working full time household); it’s hard when you have children and parents who are full time workers. One of the things I've learned the which I wish I knew when my kids were younger, because I do see the impact on them, was kids need a level of attention to grow in the best possible way from their primary caregivers. There are studies on it, and this is what we're finding more and more. There are two things happening at the same time. One is the cost of living is going up and so many people are having to increase the amount they must work to be able to survive. This is coupled with the introduction of technology, how easily accessible that is to us, and how addictive it is. I admit even for me those two things are distracting us often as parents from giving the level of attention needed for children to grow with a sense of inherent worth. We're seeing it play out in those older years. We're seeing a massive increase in mental health issues.
One of the things I've learned is what we give our attention to is what we communicate has worth. I know this through my own personal journey, of figuring out why I was giving my attention to certain things outside of myself and not my children for as long as I did.
I always thought why is it that it's so hard for me to play with my kids? Why am I trying to get away from them, not to them? That was the script I inherited (generational trauma) from my family for good reason. My sole parent, my dad (my mum died young) was left to fend for himself, and his survival was based on from a very young age his ability to be a useful working person. He trained us that to stay alive and do well, you've got to know how to work. When I had kids, I found it challenging because my worth was not in being a mother, looking after them and giving them my attention. It was in my work, and that was what was reflected to me. Neither one of those things should be true, it should inherently just be we have it. What we don't realise is through what we give our attention to, something deeply impactful that happened to us adults as kids are then being passed on to our children without even realising it. Technology is amplifying this in a way we've never seen. There are a lot of us on the sidelines freaking out that we're literally creating a generation of children with attachment issues. We're seeing that play out a little bit, because children just need something from us, we are not giving them and we're seeing this through what is happening for them as they're growing.
Are there any leaders in the space who are lighting a new way forward? What are some of the ways they're making a difference?
There absolutely are, the awareness of this is on the rise. If you somehow get in the algorithms on Instagram, there are the right people you can follow like the Holistic Psychologist. In Australia there's someone I follow and I'm friends with who's working with us called Lael Stone. She runs a school in Melbourne called Woodline Primary, and it's one of the first social and emotional support schools for children. There are a whole heap of extraordinary things going on there. I do want to say it's important to understand as I say all of this, it isn't a judgment on parents. I have three kids that are 15, 13, and 9, and I've had to face the reality of this years after I was educated about it, and then I had to work to try and rewrite my nervous system and the nervous system of my kids. It's as much a journey of us as adults healing the pains of our own childhood and reflecting on what happened to us, not with the intent to blame or shame anybody, but just to be for ourselves what often adults weren't for us. Once you understand how to do that for yourself as an adult, it comes naturally, and you understand how to do that for your child. But if no one ever did that for you, you don't even know what that looks like; you don't even know what you're not doing. You totally don't have the script, and so part of the work is for adults. That's hard and painful work. It's work we've all created a lot of stories around to try and avoid it, because it's painful stuff. As we all continue to live in denial, use phones to distract ourselves or just work so we don't see each other or pay attention, our children are getting most affected by technology. This is not just our children's phone use, but it’s also our phone use as adults. I was talking to someone about it recently, a professor from the Queensland University of Technology (QUT) whose work is in neuroplasticity and neuroscience. She said in the past asbestos was there, everyone was building with it and then they realised 40 years later it was killing us. Then we had cigarettes which were the next best thing, and everyone was smoking. Phones are the asbestos and cigarettes of this generation. It's not just about phones giving us cancer because of radiation, no it's doing something totally different in terms of how it's rewiring our brain, relationship to ourselves, kids, and ability to give things proper attention. It is killing us, but we're not seeing it at the levels we need to see it for people to take it as seriously as we need to. Unfortunately, smoking is a good example of how bad it needs to get before we start to do something about that; history would tell us that's the direction we're heading in. The information's there, the education's there, but the challenge is once you're accountable to yourself and you can't say, "I didn't know, it's not my fault." There's only so far you can take that as an adult. I'm just not that person, I was the person who just wants to know. I want to know because I need to protect my kids, because I had them, I'm responsible for them and it's my job as their mum to find out!
ParentTV is a global database of parenting information you’ve created. Can you please tell us more about that?
We've created this as a tool for parents if they want to learn about parenting. It's there, so you can't say, "oh, I didn't know it wasn't there.” There are no agendas in anything we're doing in terms of trying to get you to buy a certain type of car for your family or go on a holiday, we are literally just going to the people who are doing research. We ask experts about what they know and what are they learning?
We aim to get that information to parents as quickly and easily as possible, because we do have the information and we know it's about what people want to pay attention to. I wish this got more attention than it did, imagine if we were paying attention to this like we do with Tiktok or Instagram reels?
What would that mean for us? I'm obsessed with the whole attention thing, and it keeps me accountable. Even with my kids, I ask what have I done today to show my kids what has worth and value? Have I just sat on my phone all day, or have I played soccer in the backyard for half an hour with my son, which says I've given you my attention because you are worthwhile? That is what it is, that is what we are doing. This is a bit crazy Sarah, but the lady I was speaking to yesterday, Professor Salina from QUT was saying (this is a bit disturbing) they're starting to see babies who are smiling when they see phones, because they've picked up on when mum or dad taking a selfie and they smile. The babies then think that's something you do when you see a phone, you smile. They're picking up these cues and banking them in their brains, that's a real thing that's happening. Babies under one years old are seeing phones and having an automatic smile reaction due to witnessing it repeatedly. This is how their brains are developing, smiling when phones are in their hand. Children are getting indents on their fingers from holding phones. Talk about evolution and the body, we're starting to develop an indent on a certain part of our finger as result of how phones get held.
Thanks for sharing Sam. It’s important people understand these ripples of impact which seemingly incidental technology use is having on the micro and macro scale.
If there are any parents out there listening to this and you have babies, what happens in those first thousand days of their life is creating the script and bedrock for them. I wish I knew as much as I knew, fortunately phones probably weren't quite what they are now. I see my youngest child more impacted than my eldest, my phone usage is probably way more than I wish it was. By the time I had my youngest (there are seven years between the two), I can see the impacts. I can see it in their ability to self-regulate, the skills that they have and how they respond, there's just a slight difference between them. My husband and I are aware of it; we are having to now work with him a lot more consciously to repair some of what we did unknowingly. But now we know, and so the other side of neuroplasticity and neuroscience is it's never too late. I have done my own personal work on this stuff at 40; it's not just that one day you decide, "I stuffed up and I’m a bad person.” Or you could decide you don't need to do anything because it's the tech company's fault. Neither one of those responses produces a positive outcome. You just need to realise technology happened, you didn't know, so what can you do next? There is lots we can do next. With our son now, he would have a bit more of an ADD vibe going on at school this impacted his ability to hold attention. We're just having to say, " we know why this is the case, what are we as his parents doing?" We must put down our phones, stop watching the Netflix series and get out in the backyard with him to play soccer every afternoon for an hour. We must engage and not just go, "this is annoying and too hard, you're being difficult, I don't like how I feel, this is too hard." We must get out of our own way and be there for him, you can retrain the brain and rewire the system, but you must do the work. It's like going to the gym, you're not going to get buff and thin doing nothing.
What inspiring projects or initiatives have you come across that are creating a positive social change?
If anything, it's the going backwards and not forwards I get excited about. By that I just mean seeing kids on my street playing together in the front yard, unencumbered, without adults, or kids playing sport. For me, the Matildas were a moment in time for so many different reasons. Those things I feel excited about in terms of how our kids are seeing things I haven't seen, certainly our daughters. I watched the final with my 15 and 13-year-old daughters, and for them to say, "Mum I really like watching sport when it's girls, we haven't done that before,” or, "wow, they're so pretty and good at sport,” touches me. They’re seeing that both being pretty, and a skilled sportswoman are possible at the same time. It shows they can still care about wanting to look nice, but also be a gangster sports person. If they sat and listened to these kids and what they had to say, that's when paying attention and being present would matter most. My 13-year-old daughter is now saying," I want to play soccer in six aside for the rest of the year," so we are looking into that. That's real life in person connection. That is a team sport, looking at faces, and involves paying attention to people. That is not a phone. That involves all the skills we need to learn about how to be with each other.
For me it's just getting back to the simple stuff like accidental interactions but being conscious of that as parents. We should work hard think about ways you can connect your kids into a community; it doesn't have to be big and bold.
I talk about this because people are often looking for solutions, but one of the biggest things I did, and it did partly come from research, was when my eldest daughter started high school, I started taking my children to breakfast. I take each of them individually once a fortnight, because I have two girls in high school one goes one week, and one goes the next week. Essentially, I do something once a week, but once a fortnight is still enough. We just go have breakfast in the morning before school, because I could fit that into my work schedule. We get up at 5:30-6:00, and I let them order whatever and we just talk about nothing. I have no agenda, it's just once a fortnight. We do this on the same day at the same time. My eldest is now at the end of Grade 10, and I know deep down, I can feel it in my bones that through just that my kids jump out of bed that morning. It isn't, "oh no, I have to get out of bed early." Instead, it’s, "hey, it's breakfast tomorrow." It has become the thing which has repaired my relationship. There is research behind this strategy, I am developing connections by repetitively doing the same thing and saying, "this is your time, and nothing gets in the way of this, no work commitments, no other person.” To do this, you must commit as a parent. You cannot just not show up. If you start not showing up and prioritising that when you said you would, you pretty much undo everything you just did. I'm three years in and that hour taught us how to be with each other and talk to each other outside of that hour. It's so simple, it's one hour a fortnight. Parents, maybe you feel like the connection is not there, or you're freaking out that you weren't what you wanted to be for your children. This was me; I’m not pointing fingers at anyone else! Something as simple as one hour a week is enough to make a difference, the solutions are not complex.
To finish off, what books or resources would you recommend to our listeners?
People probably know Brené Brown, so anything of hers. I'm a big fan of Madonna King just yesterday she released her latest book called Saving Our Kids. There are a lot of people who are very concerned about the lack of support and protection we are giving our kids. I don't want to be one of those crazy people, but I am alarmed because our kids are not okay. Saving Our Kids by Madonna King, I would say pick that book up and read it. A lot of it does have to do with technology. There has been a 300% increase over the last six months in sextortion of our children. 3% of parents believe it's an issue and are talking to their kids about it. They've got the data to say this is happening to your children, and only 3% of you are taking action to support and protect your children. When talking about the internet and phones to kids, think of it like a place. Would you go and drop your child in the streets at 2am in the morning and drive back to your house after telling them, “Find your own way home?" What do you think could happen to them? When we're giving phones to our kids, it's like we're dropping them in the streets at 2am in the morning, because it is full of predators. Parents, you wouldn't do that in real life, so why digitally?
It's so much work, I know. I do this with my kids, and it requires consistent everyday battles, it is not one and done. There is no ‘one and done’ when it comes to technology. It requires continuously checking in, having conversations, putting up boundaries, and effort.
But, if we don't do that well, like we're doing now, we're seeing numbers that are off the charts. Saving Our Kids looks into all of that stuff. We're all starting to get worried. The messages are coming hard and fast because we’re realising, we need to protect kids. ParentTV exists to address this. That's one place you can start. Everything you could ever want to know about parenting is on ParentTV. We are a subscription service with a base rate of $10 a month. You could literally pay $10 and spend the month watching everything you need to watch and then unsubscribe! We're just at the point where we need to get this information out there, and the reason why we must be a subscription service is to fund what we do. If we were free, then we would have to go down to advertising and sponsorship, which would essentially ruin the whole point of what we're trying to do, which is give information not compromised by agendas. I feel it's all very doom and gloom what I'm saying, but it's not. There's freedom on the other side. If people only knew the freedom the relationship with your kids, connection and taking responsibility brings you. Yes, it's work, but something happens that's beautiful, magical, and amazing.
