Jimmy Pham On Fostering Empathy And Seizing Moments As A Social Entrepreneur
Jimmy Pham has been a pillar of the Hanoian community for over 22 years. Born in Saigon but raised in Sydney, Jimmy keeps a foot in both camps which has allowed him to successfully operate in the hospitality sector, in Vietnam, for over 20 years.
Jimmy’s long history operating the KOTO social enterprise (the first vocational training program in Vietnam), has allowed Jimmy to not only develop extensive experience in the social justice space but also vast business networks within Vietnam.
His high visibility among both expats and local Vietnamese has long been an asset that he has utilised by mentoring socially inclusive businesses into thriving institutions in Hanoi through the Centre for Social Initiatives Promotion. Jimmy brings diversity, he brings passion, but above all, he brings a strong sense of the importance of international partnerships in making Vietnam the amazing place that he has always known that it is.
Jimmy discusses the establishment of Know One, Teach One (KOTO) in Vietnam, and his techniques for social entrepreneurs to claim valuable opportunities whenever they arise.
Highlights from the interview (listen to the podcast for full details)
[Indio Myles] - To start off Jimmy, could you please share a bit about your background and what led you to working in the social enterprise sector?
[Jimmy Pham] - Actually, I think for a lot of entrepreneurs they're from very typical trades, very pastoral and they go on to do lots of different things. For a lot of us we fall into the social enterprise space, because when we started many years ago, especially in this region, social enterprise was not very well known. Today even, it's still not very well known, but at least it is much better than it was 20 years ago. I kind of fell into the social enterprise space, but my background is I was born during a very tough time, which is known as the American War. My father's Korean and my Mum was Vietnamese, and she's actually from the North and was a street kid herself.
We moved down to the South during the reunification of Hanoi, the North and the South. She grew up in Saigon and that's where I was born, but like a lot of people who fought on the wrong side, we knew in 1972 that in the war the North had won. A lot of us who lived in the South actually fought for refuge elsewhere overseas, and that's also a period where we were known as the ‘boat people’. My family fled to Singapore and then to Saudi Arabia, and because my father is Korean, I was much luckier than a lot of refugees.
Then finally, at the age of eight, called Australia home and that's where I grew up, in Sydney. Even though we were collecting coupons from bins and all that kind of stuff, we were still very lucky. We still had a roof over our head, an education and food on the table. I was taught values by our mum, so I come from a very large family with six of us altogether. I grew up in a lucky country and had an education, and I had a regular lucky life.
At the age of 24, I began work in the tourism industry, which brought me back to Vietnam, and I went for a walk which I call 'the walk that changed my life'.
That's where my whole life changed, when I met two poor street kids, which made me think that I can be the change that I want to see in the world.
That's a very powerful story Jimmy, it's very interesting you've been in so many different countries.
Can I add something Indio? It is also more of a journey where you learn, grow and all that stuff. Eventually, to answer your question of what lead me to starting a social enterprise is I just kind of fell into it. I saw a need and I acted on it, and as the interview progresses, I'll tell you more about how the concept came about.
You saw the opportunity and took it, that's fantastic. Jimmy, could you share the core mission of your social enterprise Know One, Teach One, which we also know as KOTO, and what KOTO is doing to make that sustainable social change that you wanted to see in the world?
KOTO, as you mentioned Indio (which stands for Know One, Teach One), when I came up with the name 20 or so years ago, there was always this understanding that once a person is helped, they would help others and that education is the key to breaking the poverty cycle. When we work, our target population is street kids, and they don't have an education.
The education level is up to grade four maximum, and [this is different especially] coming from Australia where we think that vocational training is super important if you're not lucky enough to go through the academic channel.
The idea was to break that cycle by learning and learning by doing for those who don't have that kind of academia background. I developed the concept because after three years or so, I lived on the philosophy that if you give someone a fish today, they will eat it, and I had been feeding, clothing, and putting them into education, but never really gave a sustainable solution.
About four years after I landed in Vietnam, those kids I helped actually came clean and told me that they'd been taking me for a ride and actually what I was doing wasn't in fact helping them at all.
They needed the next sustainable step, which was just to get them a job. That's when the name KOTO came about, it was just through that education that they would be able to have that fishing rod to go and fish for the rest of their lives.
That's how the concept came about, so everything grew very organically. To answer your first question, in Vietnam 20 years ago you had two choices really. One was an NGO, which is a non-government organisation, and the other one was a business. There were no social enterprises in Vietnam, but for me, I have a whole bunch of street kids who don't have any schooling or paperwork and they're considered menaces to society. The only thing I could learn was to give them the most transferable skills, and that for Vietnam is in the tourism and hospitality industry.
Hospitality is basically learned by doing, and the only way I'm going to be able to become sustainable is to earn a salary or income. So, I combined this idea of creating this training program that can also earn money and give them the practical training they need.
That's how it came to me, and it makes sense, right? Even if I do a project, a proposal and then get some funding, when the funding runs out you usually just close the project, and this pandemic is really a great demonstration of that. [Instead] we continue doing that model, and the great thing is our empowerment message. Know One, Teach One is basically saying once helped, help others, but don't go through this mentality (especially in Asia) where it's a charity. It's about investment, helping others and how you don't have to be rich to help people. You don't have to be able to be well off to be able to do things.
You can actually start doing things by just being kind and of service to others. That's how the Know One, Teach One [mentality] came by, and now it is a critical part of the whole program where the older class teach a younger class and the younger class teach the newly recruited class.
Then, when you go out of the program and out into the community, we have over 1,000 alumni, and they're in this instant membership with all these big brands. But, because you're KOTO and your older brothers and sisters (so to speak) have graduated before, they become those mentors and support networks for you out in the community.
Every time I hear that story [and I've had the pleasure on multiple occasions], I just think about how it's a really beautiful story. I think there's a lot for every entrepreneur to take away from that. Jimmy, over your life you have travelled quite extensively, and you were talking about this before. This obviously influenced your perception of the world, so from these travels, what lessons have you learned about bringing different cultures together to interact more effectively?
The start is, I'm super proud to be Australian; it has taught me this fighting for the underdog mentality. I remember going through the 40 Hour Famine when I was only eight years old and trying to raise money for kids in Africa. It was these values that as Australians we've had instilled in us at a very young age. Then number two, by extensively travelling around, I had the privilege of developing empathy if that makes sense, where you find that different cultures bring different lessons.
When you're from Australia, even within this great country, you can't just apply whatever that culture is all the way to Southeast Asia. How I applied this in my program is that I bring this Western, Australian training, which includes the methodologies and the deliveries of the Australian curriculum that were accredited through the Box Hill Institute in Melbourne. This program then has got this international flavour in training. But the culture at the end of the day is still Vietnamese. At the end of the day, they still have to interact with their own people, so it's very important that they have the culture of being Vietnamese, and it's been implemented and echoed all the way through the program because they are living here throughout the program for two years. For example, one of our cultures that's very different to Australia is that when you eat, you pick up your bowl of rice and then immediately you ask the people that are older than you and opposite you at the table for permission to eat.
That culture is still very much alive at the KOTO program, because they are Vietnamese and they should be very proud of being this ethnicity, but this extensive travelling and this empathy that you develop all of a sudden can now be applied through your teaching and the program implementation.
Such an interesting conversation of cultures and definitely an interesting and valuable insight. For KOTO more specifically now, it's been reiterated over the past two decades. It has evolved significantly since the beginning; I think you would agree with me on that. I just want to see, over that journey, what was the best way you found to seize opportunities to adapt as an entrepreneur rather than growing lethargic and not moving with the times?
I think for us, from the very beginning over time we just had a very different approach to social enterprise. We're not a donor driven agenda, we [instead] believe in every sense that everything we do is a form of partnership and it has to be reciprocal.
That helps us to grow because not everyone is going to be able to like the concept of charity, so it has to be a win-win situation. That whole belief can be applied to the program and to everyone you meet. For example, we work with a very large IKEA like furniture shop here on the fifth floor of this building. So, they win due to our brand and the fact that there is 15 to 20% more traffic coming into the store. They win in that sense, and we win by actually being able to often get our kids an income and training, hence gradual sustainability.
In every respect, we're trying to move with the time methodology, but also in partnerships and the spirit of partnership. But we also try to understand that in order to be truly sustainable, you actually have to approach it that way because you can't be reliant and complacent. You've got to diversify and always be moving with the times.
A lot of social enterprises make the mistake that because they have a very strong social mission, they put that at the forefront of their business model, which is wrong. You have to apply a very strong business practice and principles to a social mission.
That means that you have to have a marketing team, a sales team and you have to rely on great products and services with whatever industry you're in to be competitive in the market and not reliant because you have a strong social mission. [You shouldn't think] that whoever comes to you you're going to give freebies, but always approach it in a way of a business. There has to be risk management, a strong business plan and strong marketing plan. [You must think of] how are you going to tell the story? Then, on top of that, whoever comes with you should be treated as a partner rather than a donor.
Reflecting on your early days as an entrepreneur, what would you have recommended to an aspiring impact-led individual beginning their journey, and what steps could they take to prepare themselves for success?
For me, and I know they have to also go through a formal way, but the informal way and I guess the emotional level is that you have to really love what you do. I know it's a bit of a cliché, but you really have to love what you do. Where I draw my inspiration from, is every morning I go to work, and sometimes we are tired, behind the eight ball, in debt and all that stuff. But then you see the smiles that we see every morning that say, "thank you for my future." That's the thing for me. I woke up every morning for 20 years, and no matter how tired or unmotivated I was, I continued to go on that journey because I believed in something.
You have to be so passionate, driven, focused and love what you do that no matter what comes your way, you can weather it.
Also, especially for people of young ages nowadays, [and sorry to all of you young listeners], perseverance is something that is just taken as a quote rather than as a practice. The young generation here in Vietnam does the same thing, if you say the wrong thing to them and they're not happy, the first thing they do is just quit. If you read all of the books of all the most inspiring and successful CEO's, they tell you how many times they failed and how they continue to fail. But, that's how you grow on your journey, and it's very important to keep at it no matter how tough things are. Of course, be realistic and have a solid business plan and capital to back up your projects, but expect it to be like any business of two-three years for it to grow.
It's also super important to remember that if 10 people tell you that your idea is wrong and you shouldn't do it, but that one person tells you to do it, then listen to that one person. Then you know that you are truly a social entrepreneur, because you're very unreasonable and that's how you're going to change the world.
That's fantastic. I think you've hit the nail on the head, and I'll have to think in the future about that perseverance.
Tell us about a few inspiring projects or initiatives that you've come across recently. Also, are there any books or resources that you would recommend for our listeners to consume, whether that's a podcast, book or any sort of media.
Thank you, but you've kind of put me on the spot here! I will say, I've sat on a board here in Vietnam for over 10 years, and it's called The Centre for Social Initiatives Promotion (CSIP).
We have funded, mentored and supported projects and start-ups that have been ready to take off throughout the last 10 years. We also work at a policy making level, which for social enterprises to be recognised [is important].
Going to the British Council shows that about 40,000 social enterprises or businesses for social inclusion are now working in Vietnam. As a small project, we change so many perceptions and people's views. In this particular space of social enterprise, I have so many inspiring projects. It's tough to pick one because there's industry, environment, community, education and all other kinds of stuff. I'm working with in Australia, and I think for Australian listeners they would know a restaurant called OzHarvest, which is run by a beautiful lady called Ronni Kahn.
I'm trying to bring that food rescue project to Vietnam, and the reason is that Vietnam is one of the biggest food wasters, and so we're trying to nourish Vietnam through this project, and she inspires me. She's not a social entrepreneur, but it's a project in Australia and she nourishes millions of Australians every year, especially throughout COVID-19 as well.
She's one of those people that really jumps to mind as someone that has inspired me as a founder, but if you talk to her on a personal level, she's just one of those people that are so inspirational and humble. I'm so grateful to be able to call her a friend.
Books wise, I think that just because you're a social entrepreneur you should not just go searching for books on social entrepreneurship.
Go read different genres, open wide, diversify and go beyond that, because in every book, whoever is the author, they have 20-30+ years of experience that they bring into this book for you.
If you can read one book, whether it's on business discipline, marketing or it's motivational, all podcasts and books are educational in themselves. It doesn't have to be on a particular topic that you're very passionate about, sometimes just reading about someone's life and how they touched and inspired others is enough for you to go on and to be inspired.
On behalf of Impact Boom, thank you for spending the time to share your valuable insights and time with us. We know how busy you are at the moment with KOTO. As always, I'm looking forward to seeing your work in the future and the progress you make with any of the boards or enterprises you work with.
Thank you, Indio, I appreciate it. If anyone has an opportunity to come to Vietnam, we would love to see you here, but after COVID of course!
