Fritzi Horstman On Addressing Behavioural Responses To Trauma Leading To Incarceration

Fritzi Horstman is both a respected film-maker & grammy award winning producer and the Founder and Executive Director of the Compassion Prison Project (CPP), an organisation dedicated to creating trauma-informed prisons, communities and bringing accountability and creative inspiration to all men and women living and working in prisons.

With 95% of the incarcerated men and women eventually returning home, Fritzi believes it is imperative that we address the chronic mental health issues in prison with common sense, compassion and urgency. In 2020, Fritzi directed Step Inside the Circle at California State Prison – Los Angeles County with 235 incarcerated men. The video has reached nearly 3.5 million views worldwide and has attracted over 900 volunteers to CPP. Fritzi and the team at CPP have just finished creating a 16-part video and workbook curriculum entitled Trauma Talks currently rolling out in the US and abroad.

Fritzi discusses How traumatic childhood experiences impact the lives and behaviours of people in prisons, and why she is bringing awareness, education, healing and change to prison systems in the US and beyond.

Highlights from the interview (listen to the podcast for full details)

[Sarah Ripper] - To start off, could you please share a bit about your background and what led you to where you are now?

[Fritzi Horstman] - I'm 61 years old and up until I was about 56, I worked in the film industry. This work was mostly post-production, but in my last job I got to produce The Defiant Ones, which was an amazing four-part documentary about Dr. Dre and Jimmy Iovine. In 2018, I was reading the book The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk, and I realised why I act the way I do. I realised why I'm nervous around my child, why I yell at him sometimes and why I have strange relationships with my friends and husband. About a month after that, I walked into a prison I was volunteering at and realised that if my behaviour is because of my trauma, then these guys’ behaviour is because of their trauma. I met one hundred magnificent men who had done something terrible but were still humans. They were still viable; they were still exciting, interesting and had something to offer the world. With prison, I feel like we become cauterised; we've had to cut off a part of ourselves. I left that day determined to change this, determined to shift this paradigm, and get these men help to inspire them to remember who they are.

Can you tell us more about your projects and the impact they’re creating?

I want to go back to something you said about how listeners may not be able to understand or have empathy for the people in prison. What I'm learning about violence (which is basically what I'm faced with), is men and women who have committed violence are being taken away from society because of that. This is with good reason; I think people who commit violence need an extended time out. But I believe that it should be a limited amount of time. When we are angry at people, we confuse our anger and sadness about an event, this violent act that happened, and we want to blame somebody. This is a trauma response; the criminal justice system is a trauma response built on being angry at a person. If someone bangs into you, you want to bang them back, that's just the way we're built instinctively.

But if we get to our cortex, the part of our brain which makes us human (the creative, higher nature, spiritual part of us), we realise this is a human. Then you dig deeper into this human, and you find out violence was the only solution they were offered during childhood.

It was the only way; it was a programming they went through. Given the circumstances, extreme poverty, living in a violent neighbourhood, living in fight or flight, in their entire lives, and then finding gangs as a way of feeling accepted or a part of something. I'm not saying that these are good ideas, I'm just saying this is the trajectory. Then we're angry at these people, but these are our people. We're angry at them, we think punishment is going to do something, but it is just another form of violence we are perpetuating in our society. Paul Conti says it so well, "[violence] is a virus, and until we stop the spread, it continues to be passed on." What I like to say to the people is what happens in prison doesn't stay in prison. You have correctional officers with a life expectancy of 59 years old. You have children now suffering because their parents are in prison and they're not growing up with support.

When we say these people need to be punished and they deserve it, we must get back into the part of our brain where we're not angry at them and where we can see them as the people and the divine humans they are. As for the projects I have going on, right now we are in the middle of 64 days of nonviolence which was started by the MLK Gandhi Institute of Nonviolence. It was started by Gandhi's grandson. It begins on January 30th (the day Gandhi was assassinated) and ends on April the 4th (the day Martin Luther King was assassinated), and so if you go on our website, YouTube, or Instagram, you'll see testimonials by the men and women in Californian prisons that are practicing the principles of nonviolence. I think today the word is humility, but I can't remember all the days. There have been some amazing testimonials from these men and women in prison doing acts of nonviolence. There are 64 days, and it's going to culminate on the 4th of April. Right now, we're working on organising a concert, spoken word and dance recital for the people that have been participating in one prison. There are seven prisons participating, and there's been a trickle of other ones. Valley State Prison already did 66 days of nonviolence last year just to get the ball rolling. That's one of our projects, we have a curriculum we just finished called Trauma Talks, which we are piloting throughout California in the United States. We're going to do one in Scotland and Northern Ireland, but we've done three successful pilots in New Zealand also. Australia, we need you guys to figure out one or two prisons we can pilot through in your country. Let's get this going because Australia was one of the first penal colonies there ever were. There's a legacy there of wonderful humans who got exported to Australia, who created a flourishing nation with people who used to be incarcerated. Let's continue the trend, and the people that need timeouts in Australia, let's bring them home in good shape. Another project we have is called Messages to the Youth. If you ask somebody in prison, what do you want to do when you get out, I'd say 97-98% percent of people will say, "I want to help the youth, so they don't end up in prison the way I did." I now say, "okay, then let's start." We're building a website; we have entries from prisons all over the United States with messages to the youth.

We've recorded videos, so we're putting all that together so that we can get the information to the youth, but also so people in prison can start seeing they can have an impact in the world.

They're not just sitting there doing nothing with their time, because the thing about time is it's sacred and most of us have forgotten that. We sentence people to life without parole, we sentence them for 50-75 years to life. I know this person who committed the crime had no regard for the person that they committed the crime for, but I think it's incumbent upon us that we have regard a society to model what human decency is in our sentencing and the way we treat people who come to prison. Once we treat them better, it has a ripple effect. What happens in prison doesn't stay in prison, and this has a ripple effect. We think that putting a prison four hours away from Los Angeles is going to keep the dysfunction away. But no, there are families that live in Los Angeles. Their loved ones are four hours away, so now they got to get on a bus and spend the very little money they have to connect with their loved ones so that there's some normalcy in their lives. That's one of the principles of Norway’s prison system, normalisation. They are starting to roll this out in California; the idea of normalisation is you don't want someone returning to society institutionalised. You want them to come back and be able to go shopping, make breakfast, get ready for school, or do their laundry. The things that you would do in normal life, you do in prison, and so you're not just in a cell. I know one guy who when he got out, he was lying on his bed. He woke up in the morning and he was waiting for someone to open the door for him, the same way that people in prison sit there and wait for the door to be opened. We get programmed, so we need to deprogram these people and be intentional in the way we're treating them. The life expectancy of an officer is 59 years old, I'm 61. I'm two years past the life expectancy of someone working in a prison, which is not acceptable. These are humans as well, but it's a whole system of dehumanisation we must get under the hood of and rewire.

How has your work been received by those working in prisons and what changes or responses have you observed?

At San Quentin (the trial zone for this California model) I filmed some of the 64 days of nonviolence. They have a media centre, and they had the guy’s film and edit the material for me to take. There were a few bumps, but I still have content created by the men living in San Quentin. That same day I went and worked with 50 men to do a compassion trauma circle, like on Step Inside the Circle. 4 million people have seen Step Inside the Circle already, probably more. It's shown in schools, clinicians see it and it's shown in prisons as well. That same day we did a circle with the incarcerated men, and three of the officers participated in that circle. Later, I got a letter from one of the prison residents, and he said, “we need to do this healing work for the officers too.” He wanted to facilitate a class for the officers, that's how they're starting to think. Another day, I was on my way to another prison and one of the officers from San Quentin called me. He said he needed my advice because he wanted to raise some money for a food pantry for the people in living in prison who can't afford basic needs. This came from an officer, which made me think the tides are changing. He's starting to think about a man living in prison who isn't doing well, they’re not thriving, so how can we help? I said, “let’s do it, we will raise the money.” We must figure this out, because when you take care of that man who can't afford enough food, soap, or shaving cream, he's not in a good state. When you're hungry, you're not in a good state, your amygdala is overactive, and your body is saying you're threatened. To calm that state, you get that aggravated state out of the situation.

Suddenly you have a man in his cortex thinking about what he can do, how he can make the world a better place. You cannot make the world a better place if you're worried about only getting one tray of food tonight. The idea of creating a proactive, interactive dynamic in the prisons blew my mind.

Those are some of the changes I'm seeing at San Quentin. This was initiated by Gavin Newsom, the governor of California, but these changes are happening in all the little pockets of California and throughout the United States. I hear of good little things; people are reaching out to me for our curriculum. It's a 16-week curriculum and it's making huge changes in people's lives, because they didn't know they were traumatised. People don't know they're traumatised, and this is why I'm yelling it through the rooftops. I'm going to prisons saying, "dudes, you're traumatised, let's figure this out." The big things I ask them are what stories have you told yourself when you're getting hit by your parents? What is the story when you're being neglected? When your parents are fighting, what story do you or did you tell yourself? They start saying, “I'm not enough, I’m not good enough, nobody loves me, I deserved it.” These are the stories and the brain patterns being programmed into their minds. I’ve got to say, I had the same programming programmed into me, and it wasn't because my parents didn't love me. They were told the same things; this is a generational interrupt we're embarking on.

What are the biggest challenges and opportunities you're seeing to create trauma informed, non-violent, compassionate spaces in prisons?

I'd say the biggest challenge we're facing is violence as a solution for the people that live in prison or are working there with the administration. This is ingrained and embedded into the system. I met a man the other day, and he said he's getting transferred to a more violent prison. I asked him why, and he told me they found a knife in his cell. I asked him why he had a knife, and he explained that he is a little guy with one eye, very vulnerable in the prison. The thing is they found a knife, and obviously they decided they can't trust him, so we’ve got to put him in a more violent place. I said go to them and ask for another chance. But that’s the thing, the system is impenetrable with these rules; if X happens, then Y happens. There are no grey areas for human intervention. It's all black and white, which is a big problem because it takes the humanity out of the system and robs every one of their powers.

The word fair has to be injected into this; is it fair to send this man to a more violent prison? For this short, vulnerable man, no it's not fair.

Violence as a solution has been the mandate, and so now we have to say humanity is the solution. That must ripple out to everything and permeate; people have the flexibility to make value judgments and human judgments.

People have to say, "no, wait a second, we need an override here.” They do have overrides in California, and I'm just dealing with California right now because it is one of the biggest prison systems in the world. There are about 95,000 people incarcerated in the State of California. That's what we're dealing with, and so that's the challenge. As for opportunities, my organisation has blossomed over the past five years. There are more grants for us and doors opening, although there are a couple jammed shut still. I'm still looking for the key to some doors, but I go for the low hanging fruit when I can. If they say come, I'm there, there's no question. The real opportunity here is for hearts and minds. We need to start asking people that before you judge a person, before you've decided someone is not redeemable, that when you were 15 years old did you do some shenanigans? We've all done those things, and you didn’t get caught, but haven't you changed since you were 15? Haven't you become a completely different human? Your prefrontal cortex hasn’t fully grown, which happens they say at 25, but I would argue it's 33 based on the guys I used to date! We know that men take a long time to develop, and violence is exciting; violence gives you that rush and the sense you have power and agency over your life. That's the thing we must understand when we're sentencing people, these are children. These are children who were incarcerated for decades, and every person I know is different than they were. When I was 15, I was shoplifting and dealing marijuana, which was illegal. Here I am, I’d say 97% of the time living with integrity as a law abiding, tax paying member of the public! If you had incarcerated me, you wouldn't have me now.

How many people are behind bars who we've thrown away? Let's reclaim ourselves. That's what I'm saying, because those are brothers, fathers, husbands, wives and sisters. They all deserve to take advantage of this great Earth life we've been given.

That's what's we are doing, we are denying the sacredness of life to somebody. We deny it for ourselves too, because now we're living knowing another person is not thriving. We can't justify it, because by justifying it, this is violence we're perpetuating. Justifying poverty, incarceration, or any kind of violence is justifying violence. Justifying violence is destroying the self. We know there's shame embedded in justification. My mother would say I only slap you when you're crossing the street, which was not true, she lied about that. She's lying and justifying her violence, and what I've come to understand is violence robs us of our authenticity because the authentic self does not want to hurt others. If you read about men going to war, they must be trained to kill somebody. It's not innate, we are not innate killers. Violence is not innate, and so when you say somebody is in prison, so they have innate violence, it's just been programmed into them. If you go in, love them, and tell them they're amazing divine humans who have value, the game changes immediately. I'm changing the game every day I walk back into prisons, every time they pick up one of my workbooks or watch my curriculum. I created a video curriculum so they can see me, because they then know I'm serious about their transformation. We're seeing the planet enraged, we're seeing the violence from our planet, it is just a reaction from the violence we have put into it. The thing is it's about vulnerability. Nobody wants to say I'm wrong, but that's the algorithm. If we want to change this world, we must own up to what we've done and make the shift. We cannot expect you to hang your head, march around and do this ceremony of blame. Just take accountability and change it. I forgive you, and I think we all must agree there has to be a blanket of forgiveness. We have screwed up, we've got a big mess to clean up, but this is the solution.

We must be accountable. We have to say I'm sorry, and we must move forward in the present. The minute you’re in the past saying, “look what you did,” you can't be accountable. You're back in the past and there's nothing positive being created.

Stay in the present and say, “I did this. I'm sorry, let's move on.” Now you have a fresh start; you're in your cortex instead of the fight or flight trying to find somebody to take responsibility. We're all responsible, so we're all forgiven.

What inspiring projects or initiatives have you come across creating a positive social change?

There's a few I love. Defy Ventures go in and teach people how to become entrepreneurs. Anybody who teaches meditation, yoga anything to help people metabolise their trauma I like. It's so important, and I like what we're doing. We're teaching people about their childhood trauma, that they're not bad people and there's a way out of this. How many people listening now have been traumatised? Do you know what your adverse childhood experience (ACES) score is? I'm going to list the 10 adverse childhood experiences; I have eight of these. Physical abuse, emotional abuse, sexual abuse, physical neglect, emotional neglect, parent or caregiver addicted to drugs or alcohol, parents or caregiver divorced, mentally ill or suicidal, household member going to prison, domestic violence or parents divorced or separated. I have eight of those, 64% of the men and women we surveyed have six or more. 64% of people have unimaginable trauma, and we're not even thinking about traumatic brain injuries. 85% of people in prisons have traumatic brain injuries from living in foster care, being homeless, or living in a violent neighbourhood. I have eight of those criteria, but then you add those to your daily life with constant toxic stress, now you can begin to understand why you are the way you are. If people get a sense of who they are, it makes them realise, “I'm not so bad, my brothers are all in the same boat that I've been in. This is why we're here.” It gives them a reboot they never knew they needed.

Everyone in Australia needs to know about this, because as a penal colony everyone was traumatised upon arrival because they were committing crimes. The violence that the people who founded Australia have in their DNA, is from generational trauma.

This isn't just for the people in prison, this is for everyone. Violence was the solution; Gandhi says allowing for passive violence ultimately allows for physical violence. Being criticised to the brain is like having a tiger in the room, all violence is a threat to our nervous system; all violence creates reactivity and stress. We must go back to accountability. I yell at my husband and even when I think I'm right, I am not going to do that again, I'm going to go and apologise. I'm going to do it, who cares who's right? As Brené Brown says, do you want to get it right or do you want to be right? It’s time we get it right. We’ve got to let the ego lose for once, say we're sorry and move on. We're all on a vice of being right, especially the two sides of the political spectrum. Just give it up. We're losing the game and we're all in this together, and the planet is giving us a lot of feedback right now. There are no justified resentments”, that Wayne Dwyer quote is in my curriculum. There are none because it holds the whole planet back. Gandhi says be the change you want to see, and it’s true because the more I become apologetic for my behaviour, the fascia and tightness in my relationships dissolve. That's helping other people not need to be right as well your own work will help change the world because when we all decide collectively that criminal justice the way it is not working, it'll become just an obvious thing. We all must make that decision and live that decision. That change in the world we want to see must be lived. I was in a hospital the other day (my husband was having surgery), and a man put eight Splendas into his drink. He's abusing his body, that in itself was betrayal; he was also betraying me because he wasn't taking care of himself. It's weird, but he is part of me, so I said something to him. I approached him and said you cannot put eight Splendas in your coffee, you can't do that anymore; tomorrow you will put in seven only. His destruction is affecting me and that's what we must see. The homeless man in the street, that's my brother, and his decisions are affecting me, and my decisions are affecting him. We must understand the connectivity of all this and how it's incumbent upon all of us. It's not just like the seven people you hear about. It's you, and you get to change.

To finish off, what books or resources would you recommend to our audience?

All my book recommendations are on my website, but off the top of my head read Bessel van der Kolk's The Body Keeps the Score, anything by Gabor Maté, Oprah Winfrey and Bruce Perry's What Happened to You, Nadine Burke Harris’ The Deepest Well, and Donna Jackson Nakazawa Childhood Disrupted. There are so many more, but also learn about brain science through Robert Sapolsky's Behave. Do some biohacking for yourself, learn about the right foods you should eat and the good water you should be drinking. Start becoming interested in being dynamic, exciting, and healthy. Do your exercise, don't betray yourself. I started lifting weights, it's changing the way I feel. I'm faster in my walks now and I’m teaching myself piano. If you make a promise to yourself, just do it. Please read Phil Stutz Lessons for Living, it's such a great book.

Anything Phil Stutz writes he says, we're either living in the lower channel, or we're activating higher forces. The way you activate higher forces is by acting constantly; it doesn't matter if acting produces good or bad consequences, just get out there and do it.

Learn the piano, make a promise to yourself and do it! That'll get you energised, and the universe will support you. My life has changed, these five years have been the best years of my life, and they have changed my life to a degree I would never have imagined. I have more energy, passion, resources, and I've met more celebrities! It's a dream come true, and it's just because I care about people, I'm expressing it and I’m acting.